We Should Talk about the future of the church

We Should Talk

What: a structured conversation about the future of the local congregation. 

When and where: We have started doing each of the conversations online through Zoom.

We don’t have a next event scheduled due to the pandemic. Please let us know of your interest so we can reach out to you when things open up.

Who: leaders of local congregations, both ordained and lay, who are

  • willing to take a clear-eyed look at the realities of the church in these times,
  • eager for the transformation of human society,
  • accepting of the need to transform the church, and
  • willing to engage in self-transformation.

To that end we are inviting you to a structured conversation in which we will offer a framework for transformation and the tools and a setting in which to practice skills building.

We Should Talk [about the future of the church] conducted a 2019 Fall Series of Conversations.  The series just ended had a huge impact of the frame of the conversation and we are eager to share it with you.  

One big addition is that Ken Ulmer and Mark Robinson are joined now by Sally Weaver.  Sally is a priest of the Episcopal Diocese of Missouri, was the vicar of St. Francis’ Episcopal in Eureka as they built a brand new church, and is currently in the D. Min. Program at Eden.  Welcome Sally!

Below we have mapped out the series of conversations we will be hosting between now and Thanksgiving. 

Our larger goal is to enhance the vitality of our local congregations.  We see them as essential to the well-being of the human community and as being at risk for decline and even failure.  We are clear that there are some things we will have to address if we are going to be relevant to this society in this time.

  • We will have to positively address the ways that science and faith are seen as being at odds with each other.  [Yes, we in the progressive Christian community are comfortable with evolution, but we have not been as assertive as we must be at reconciling our theology with our cosmology and the weirdness of quantum mechanics.]
  • We will have to enter the digital age of communication and respond positively to the interpersonal alienation that our social networks and smartphones create.  [Live-streaming the sermon is not going to connect to those who are not already “churched.”]
  • We will have to use the tools of organizational development and especially the science of complex adaptive systems to identify where our organizations are working well and where we are doing those things that keep us rigid to the point of being brittle.  [We are not going to be vital if we can’t be resilient.]

We are not just pointing out the problems.  We are presenting specific approaches to addressing them that are readily in the reach of existing local congregations.   To that end we are hosting five conversations.  They are best experienced as a set but they can each stand alone, so even if you can’t attend them all, you will find them to be both accessible and useful.


#1: the overview:

There are certain fundamental questions and assertions that under-gird the larger conversation.

  • The local congregation is without peer as the way into understanding and living our faith.  There is no other institution that does this.
  • The urgency that we act together as mature humans on behalf of the larger society and the planet has never been greater.
  • The tools for building the resiliency of local congregations are largely ignored.  They require both a complex way of seeing the problems, and a great willingness to be transformed.
  • These roadblocks can be removed if we live into the purpose of the local congregation which is to support the transformation of human consciousness.

#2 the scope of the task: 

We think about the problems of being a robust organization, caring to do justice in the world, and drawing closer to God all within the same framework. [8 Orders of Being]

  • What is “transformation?”
  • Transformation is a feature of a particular kind of change in all of the realms of our lives.
  • It is somewhat automatic when we live in a community that is more mature than we are but becomes very much more difficult if we are to continue to grow above the “center of gravity” of most of those around us.
  • There are “technologies for transformation” which we can use or adapt.
  • There is a potent map for understanding the eight orders of being that are available to each of us and potentially to the local congregation.

#3 the process of transformation: 

Even as we appreciate the effects of transformation, we are not eager for it because of the effort and the uncertainty of where it will take us. [Transformation Octave]

  • Transformation is a universal process.  Everything that grows, does so by stages of transformation.
  • While each transformation is unique, there are certain aspects, or steps, or stages that recur.
  • The more fully we embrace each step, the more positive change will arise from the process.
  • As we embrace transformation it becomes easier and more fulfilling.  If we fight transformation we only hinder our growth and make the struggle harder.

#4 harnessing the power of anger and conflict:  

We discover the opportunity for transformation from disruption and polarization.  [The Alchemy of Anger and JustConflict]

  • There are no relationships without conflict and our biggest conflicts are with those with whom we are closest.
  • Emotion connects us and informs us about the nature of what is arising; and, we can be flooded by emotion and do things we regret.
  • Resolving conflict requires that we listen to others from our hearts and see their perspective as valid for them.
  • Acting to resolve conflict requires that we speak the helpful truth with courage and honesty, not depending on others changing, and creating what the whole system needs.

#5 being in mutually accountable community: 

We have clearly identified roles and responsibilities and know what we can expect of others and what they expect of us. [Dynamic Governance]

  • While we often think in terms of hierarchies, the natural world is more of a set of nested systems… each is a whole in itself, and a part of a larger whole.  Everything is a whole-part.
  • Whatever a part does has an impact on the whole.  What we do matters.
  • When all of the parts of a system act in concert to address the needs of the whole system, the system is healthy and can powerfully inform and support those systems around it.
  • Thus we can change the world by each identifying our role [purpose, domain, and accountability] and acting with others in a manner that transforms the larger system to become better and better at fulfilling the purpose of the system.

The design of this conversation was shaped by the perspectives of many people from many smaller conversations [lay leaders in local congregations, seminary staff and faculty, judicatory staff and elected leadership, and many local pastors]

We know of a good many resources which we have come to believe will be helpful to those called to leadership in the church [leadership development, organizational development, theory of complex adaptive systems, integral philosophy, creation spirituality, and implications of the new science for how we encounter the real], and we trust that as new people enter the conversation, they will bring with them valuable new perspectives and resources.

We are not duplicating or in conflict with the resources of any seminary or denomination.

We are not the source of wisdom but the container of the conversation to which we each bring our wisdom.

While we are not certain about the future, we know that it calls us to a new way of being in the present.  And we know that this new way of being is profoundly different from who we were called to be in the past.

While we don’t know what the future of the church will be, we do have some clarity, based upon science, about what the church of the present might be that would allow the church to be more responsive to what the future is calling us to.

When we speak of the church as The Body of Christ, we typically think of that as a metaphor… the church is like a body.  But what if we see it as the true nature of the church?  What if the local congregation is not just an organization, but an organism?  What if the various settings of the church are complex adaptive systems that can learn and grow and evolve just as simpler organisms do?  What if all of the settings of the church became so resilient that the rapid and dramatic changes happening now in human culture became the growth medium for the coming of Christ?

This resilience will arise only as we;

  • are clear about the purpose of the organism,
  • easily and fully communicate with and are accountable to each other, and
  • are eager to discover new ways of being that better meet the needs of the world. 

There are three things we can do right now, in this turbulent present, that will draw our local congregations into this new way of being.

  • Adopt and adapt new governance structures that lessen our attachment to dominance hierarchies and lean more toward distributed decision-making in accountable holarchies.
  • Without abandoning our role as institutions which engage in preservation and conformation, become more intentional about teaching and supporting mechanisms for transformation.
  • Observe that local settings for the church, vital as they are for those who are members, are not sustainable as the Body of Christ in isolation.  The leaders of all settings must be mutually accountable across and between the settings of the church.

We hope you can join us for the next series of conversations. 

This event is a program of  the Center for Creative Conflict Resolution and is not affiliated with any denomination or other setting of the church.

Leadership for the event is by Sally Weaver, Ken Ulmer and Mark Robinson. Ken and Mark are ordained in the UCC and have experience within and beyond the local congregation. Sally is a priest of the Episcopal Church.

Sally Weaver worked in the business world doing corporate training before attending Eden Seminary and being ordained an Episcopal priest. She was the Executive Director of a non-profit tending to troubled teens before becoming the vicar of St. Francis’ Episcopal in Eureka. She resigned shortly after they moved into their new building. She is currently in the D.Min program at Eden.

Ken Ulmer’s career includes parish ministry, conference ministry, health plan administration. He worked for 35 years in not for profit and for profit service organizations doing start-ups, rescues, and turn-arounds. He retired from the Pension Boards UCC in 2007, where he served as Director of Health Plans. He is a member of Peace UCC in Webster Groves.

Mark Robinson’s ministry has included serving in six congregations in Eastern and St. Louis Associations. In his work as a pastoral psychotherapist, he has consulted on behalf of dozens of clergy and the staff of the MMSC.  As Executive Director of the Center for Creative Conflict Resolution, he routinely teaches about technologies for personal and organizational transformation.  He is a member of Pilgrim UCC in St. Louis.

They are offering a curriculum that is designed to enhance skills for local church ministry in the 21st Century. The key elements of the offerings will build expertise in transformation, building organizational styles that cultivate leaders for the next generation, emphasis on collegiality as a key method to grow skills.

Offerings include educational forums, intensive training on complex adaptive systems, practice groups, and local church leadership training in transformation.